911 C4
 

I've eaten two vettes. They were fairly new models. Just out on the street anf feeling naughty. It was obvious they were going for it.
They first one was probablly drunk. Pretty vette. He was giving it all he had. Probablly an automatic transmission. I have no idea how fats, etc. I'd say his first mistake was kicking it on entry into an entrance ramp onto the freeway. It was a large curved ramp. He couldn't handle the accelleration. I of course simple downshifted into 3rd and kicked it. I could manuver easy around and past him during this curve. When he caught up... only because I let him. I simply repeded the process and roared ahead. he just waved and gave up.

They second was being a smarty pants on a straight road acceleration. Again I felt like being cute... Although I understand and appriciate just what the new corvettes are... I think he miscalculated the absolutly savage traction ability of my C4.

Other than that I've tried to behave myself. I don't want to mess up my little baby. There have been several mustang experiances.
These are lame. usually I'm in traffic with no place to go and some younf punck in a pre 2005 mustage really revs the engine and squirts rubber for several yards in an attempt to impress himself by beating a Porsche. Of course he just comes out of no where and I have no idea what's going on until I hear him wasting his Daddy's money on tires and cluth, etc. Usually the punk has got a cell phone on his ear and no doubt telling his little cutie what a stud he is. ??? I've had at least a couple pull similer stunts on a curved exit ramp.

I don't want to wreck my ride or worse have a stupid teenager get himself killed over this. But the obvious happens. I'm not even trying. Just enjoing the curves. He on the other hand hits the curved exit ramp like he's an instructor from Skip Barber racing school...
and then looses control and breaks trying to keep it on the road while I excelerate around and past.


I've been through this silly stage years ago and now that I finally managed to get into my first Porsche don't have the immature urge to repeate the tragic mistakes of my youth. On the other hand I have a confession for a guy my age... I still lost a little control one day. Scuffed up my rims on one side a little. mechanically no big deal and visually you can barely tell. But I did skim the shoulder!
I couldn't believe it. Considering I have plenty of experiance driving and plenty with a motorcycle.

They phenomenon was one I should have understood instinctivly from riding a sport bike years ago. You hit a curve at a high speed and begin to loose your angle or control. You are not making the turn. This is the major cause of bike deaths by the way in my opinion. The pro thing to do is hang or ride the damn bike through the curve. Lean into it and actually accelerate to keep the turn going smart.
But in actuallity it's scary and take experiance! I think this was probablly the thing to do with my 911.

I do not know how I hit it too fast. My judgment is usually very tight for a non pro. But somehow I found myself heading towards the shoulder and not making the curb. I probablly should have held the angle and ecelerated??? The rear end must have been slightly coming around behind me. I do not know. I need a professional's advice on this. I wasn't going that damn fast. But by the time I had caught the car I was scarthing the sholuder and it's fortunatley small curb. No big slam. Just a skim but... those rims show everything and my driver's side rims are scratched around the edges. My silly ass behavior probablly will cost at least $600. for two rims???

RE: 911 C4
 

okay, I'm a professional - consultant. People pay between $350 and $1300 an hour for my advice, so here it is, for free..

Its simple: don't street race on the street. There are autocrosses and drag strips and road series that permit you to race. Doing it on the street is just asking for trouble. You are lucky you are not in jail.

And, as to taking on a 'vette in a Porsche, I have no doubt that this will call down the wrath of every Porsche-lover on me, but you are just asking tyo get you butt kicked. I own and love one of each so I think I know strengths and weaknesses.

There ARE idiots in stock vettes out there. You can win a few. But do the math:::: you have to go really, really fast to make any difference than will deomonstrate your superiority. The gap between the slowest last generation corvette (convertible C5, standard engine, auto - 13.5 quarter mile) and an S manual trans (12.9 sec quater mile) is about three-five car lengths . . . . at 111 mph!! Point being you have to go really, stupidly fast on the street to prove who is faster. And a Porsche is faster around tight turns and short straights, but a vette will eat it alive on sweeping bends and long straightways -- there are more of those on the street, so you have more chance of being eaten than eating.

And then there is this: you will ultimately lose more than you win in a stock Carrera S: there are A LOT of modified vettes out there, and as I have always said, a stock vette is nothing but a good starting point -- so cheap to modify and the modifications work so well-- the marginal cost of real, verifiable dyno RWHP for a vette is about $50-85 per, for a Porsche it is about 2 to 3 times that. and there is not as far to go. I have seen and raced (off the street, and lost) to vettes that are very streetable and that dyno at 1000 RWHP - that 0-100 in less than 5 seconds. And they look fairly stock.

My experience is that just about any vette out late a night on a weekend, and spoiling for a race is modified -- certainly it has nitrous about 100 extra HP, maybe with a heads and cam kit ASND nitrous, 200 extra HP, or like mine, heads and cam kit, extra displacement every trick in the book, and a supercharger but no nitrous (2.25 times the stock RWHP). My vette is certainly not the fastest -- its been soundly thashed several times -- but it puts nearly 600 HP to the rear wheels (594 to be exact) -- does the 1/4 in 10 flat on street tires, and has put a second and half on a very mean RUF turbo in the quarter in an off street race (and 1.5 seconds is NOT just three-five car lengths!!!).

If you street race stock against vettes you will a) wind up in trouble with the law, b) get your butt handed to you on a silver platter nmore times than you win. Pick road races off the strteet where you can exploit the Prosche advantage.

And its not just vettes. The really fast street racers are in Camaros. I live in central Carolinas. My youngest son, who is 25, cruises late at night iaround Durham-Raligh in a rather ratty Black 98 Camaro, quad 4 inch pipes, big gaps in the fender fits, ZO6 wheels, 408 engine emblems -- looks like nothing special. That car can lift its front axle off the ground on a fast start and does 0-60 mph in 2.4 seconds and the quarter in the high 9s. THAT is what you face in street racing.

Plus the police, who always win.

RE: 911 C4
 

Wow. Are all the posts on this forum this long. I don't think I can keep up.

Jabora: remember that Porsche 911s are notorious for difficult handling right at the limit. with the original 2-W drive cars, it was spinning out in a tight curve, particularly if you got off the throttle and onto the brakes -- I know because it happened to me twice in my 72 years ago and I did more than skuff rims. With the newer 4W drive, I understand that the car doesn't spin as it reaches/hits the limit of adhesion in a curve, but that with little warning and more than a bit of drama, right at the edge it just starts to take a wider line - drift to the outside so that you end up taking a wider turn than you wanted or an do anything about.

Lee: I agree about street racing, bound to get you into trouble -- we had a couple of kids killed near my home town last year, racing in Mustangs. There are some drag strips and a small road course here we sometimes practice on. I also agree mostly about the vettes: what I see at the drag strip is pretty impressive. Cars that look like nothing much can do in the 11s, which no stock anything can touch. I'm not sure that a Corvette can outcorner or outbrake a Porsche even on sweeping bends and a wide road course though, but power is one thing they are not short of.
You mentioned your son and the Camaro. does he street race?

RE: 911 C4
 

I'll concede that properly set up Porsches are hell on any road course. Vettes aren't the only cars that get upgraded, although I've seen far fewer Prosches (but then, there are far fewer Prosches to begin with)

As to my son street racing, as far as I know, he takes after his old man and never does. He did admit that he once took a Porsche Turbo on at a red light that leads straight to the highway. Says they guy was a total ass and they went out and he did it because he knew it would be over in an instant, and claims he killed the other guy (given that it was a straight line, I believe him - nothing on the street but another drag car can take something like that in a straight line:: of course it can't corner worth a damn).

I'm sure, like me, he also sometimes floors it in traffic just to show up the other guy, etc., but a brief one or two second burst of power -- that's not street racing. Both of us cruise a lot in the evnings and if we find someone who wants to race we set up a meeting at one of two nearby tracks. I don't race the vette, but offer to have people race "my other car - its a Camaro with a slightly smaller engine." Often put a wager of a grand or so on it but (see below).

Both of us put up with a lot of crap from immature idiots on the street, Eclipses and Civis seem the worst, riding your bumper, etc., trying to goad you into racing. The fun part is it really pisses them off that you won't race and of course they go off knowing deep inside that you would have taken them. But we had one guy who in a Mustang who got sideways spinnning the tires and showing off a couple of years ago and bumped the left front fender of the Camaro and cracked it - he ran off and although we got the kicense # we didn't do anything.

Our experience also is that anyone who agrees to meet and race and shows up at the track might really win, and be misrepresenting their car (all is fair in love and war): its very hard to tell a GMPP 620 cubic inch crate motor from a tired, original 454, if its been disguised, and of course real street racers are masters at hided the nitrous bottle they swear they don't have. I'll post something else about that: all is fun in love and challenge racing-there is a lot of reall good machinery on the street, at least down here in North Carolina.

RE: 911 C4
 

Interesting. I guess you can't really "cheat" in street, or as you call it, challenge racing, can you? At least when you go to a road race you have some confidence that the other guys have cleared the tech insepction and are playing mostly by the rules.

You say you r son drives the Camaro -- did he do most of the work on it and develop his love about cars from you (apple falls close to the tree?). My son is 17 and could care less about anything but guitars. All he wants is a car carry an big amplier setAt least I don't worry about him street racing in his Saturn 3-door.

RE: 911 C4
 

Its only the youngest of three boys who is into cars. And I know about the guitars. My middle boy never cared about cars, but loved guitars. After 5.5 years of college and two degrees, he decided to forego law school (forever?) and he is a bass guitarist in a country western band, but they seem to do very well and he makes enough to support himself in good fashion, so it can work out. The oldest boy was the same about bicycles and is now just ended a several year "career" as a professional bicycle racer

Part of of #3 son's auto-mania seems to be a natural inclination and part is my encouragement. But most is self-taught/job training. At 18 he wangled a porters job at the local Ford dealership and from that to mechanics assistant, mechanic, certified mechanic, and he is now service manager for a whole Ford Quicklane (routine service and small repairs). He knows much more about cars, and particularly about hot-rodding, than I do, which given I've been addicted for 40+ years, amazes me. He does all the work on the Camaro: bought the short block as piece, but assembled the heads, put the engine together, and installed engine, trans, and the locker rear end conversion, etc. Even welded in the roll cage himself. Only labor he hires done is engine computer re-editing. Anymore, I ask HIM for advice all the time, and he is never wrong.

RE: 911 C4
 

Yeah, kids grow up according to their own game plan.

Must be nice to have a son who shares your interest in cars. What does he think of your 996? I've driven one at a dealer and frankly it felt much closer to my 993 than I expected, just a bit bulkier but only a tad more powerful

RE: 911 C4
 

My son was impressed with the Porsche. Said its the best built light car he's ever seen. Was wowed that it comes from the factory with headers. Since he is service manager at the Ford dealership I get all my work done there (they are quite qualified to work on it, they service 3 Ford GTs). He set it up for me: had their master technician align all four wheels to the very center of specifications and tested that it was true, set up tire inglaction pressures for even tire heat across the tread, etc. That helped immensely and made it handle much lighter, yet still stable. He's the one who actually took it the the strip and ran it through its paces (temp and pressure corrected 1/4 mile in 13.45 or so at 105 or a bit + -- seemed realy good to me for an automatic).

I've only driven a 993 around the block once. It felt smaller, lighter, and a bit more like I always expected a Porsche to feel.

RE: 911 C4
 

I would agree with the "best built light car" bit. I think that is what you really pay for: superior engineering. Did re-aligning the tires make that much difference? I would think that it would make some but not a lot of difference. The quarter mile time seems good. He must know how to drive 'em.

RE: 911 C4
 

Thanks guys. Ok Ok. I'm not totally stupid. I was just having a little fun. Actually I drive like a sissy most of the time.
I've had several friend killed in bike accidents... I guess 5 or 6? I'm good at shuting off the my memory search function with this topic.
I've lost at least one to a drunk. I've broken 24 bones in my own little crash ups. I'm scared to death deep inside. I have dreams about that whirl of motion and the hard crunch/thump noise that it ends with, etc.

I know well what corvettes are. I never really cared for them until recently. When they started pulling up along side and playing around. Most of the vett drivers I've met recently seem to be great folks. I guess we have something in common.
I've noticed the vette in a new light. They are really pretty and I know they are powerful.

I'm not interested in street racing or the show off attention. All I have to do is drive to the store and it's like there's red neon sign flashing above my car that says free sex!

I appriciate the comments. I was just having a little good natured fun with the vetts. LOL.
I should have realized my post would bring down the wrath.
I'm now expecting someone to say they fly a jet fighter for the Navy. ;)

P.S.
Didn't they do that on some show a few years back? It seems like someone raced a jet in a Viper or something???

RE: 911 C4
 

Vettes are very cool. I love mine. But Porsches are very cool, better built, and better engineered by a bit. My 996 Carrera C2 is without doubt the easiest car to live with day to day I've ever owned, except for the effect it has on making other drivers behave like asses. As to the oppposite sex, my wife loves it beyond all rational explanation. She has told me it is her favorite car of all time (we've owned like 33 cars of all types and flavors) and to never get rid of it. She can't drive (bad eyes) so, what is it? She says its sexy and comforting to ride in. Other people are jealous, I know that. But tough.

For me, I love the absolute linear precision of the handling and the power, which IS pretty good.

On the other hand, Vettes, particuarly modified ones, are simply beyond expectation in power. But I drive and enjoy the Porsche more.

RE: 911 C4
 

You Know, I have never driven a vette!
In fact I havn't even rode in one newer than maybe 89.
There's a pretty new yellow one that drives a similer route.
He always catches up to me on the freeway and waves.
It's really beautiful. We're both in yellow so it looks good at
the light. Other cars will stay back a distance when we pull up
together. It doesn't seem dramatically more powerful?

But there is also a black one nearby...
I don't know what he did to it.
He got on my tail one night and it sounded like a dragon.
I felt like Batman was gonna get me.

My girlfriend likes the Porsche too of course.
She's still mad that it's not an automatic.
Otherwise, I would be in her VW Jetta a lot more than I would like.

RE: 911 C4
 

They've made vettes since 1953 so there are all sorts of vintages and performance ranges. Generally older ones were faster than about anything made when they were new, but are slower than new vettes. They can still be pretty fast. A 96 (335 HP LT4 engine) is nearly ten years old now but still capable of quarter mile in the low 13s, stock.

The new standard vettes are very quick - quarter mile in mid 12s, unless it is the ZO6 model - 11.6 @ 127!!.

They are pretty nice cars, every year of them, and a lot of fun. But then, so are Porsches or alot of other different cars. Modified ones (sounds like the black Batman one you ran into) are usually loud, and often faster than stock (but sometimes, just load).

RE: 911 C4
 

I'm pretty sure this guy was The Batman!
Or at least he thinks he is.
From what I could see he looked horny and kind of mean.

RE: 911 C4
 

Be careful, some Vettes will chew you up. Even a stock C5 or C6 is pretty fast but the modded ones will surprise you for sure.

RE: 911 C4
 

i'd have to agree. Vettes can be MONSTERS in the performance department when modded, and in stock form the newer ones can rip a 911's head off. Any vette is to be taken seriously, because they are seriously fast cars.

RE: 911 C4
 

Im a C4 owner and have played with a few Porsches recently. I have plenty of respect for them (they were both turbos, one heavily boosted).
Fun running up against something thats "close". Ive never gotten anything except a thumbs up or a nod from one when its over either, no attitude.

I always wanted an older Carrera as I dug them as a kid growing up....Came very close to buying a 928S...THere is one running around town here that is light blue, manual with a big blue bottle in his hatch area.
Just dont know enough about them to repair so I passed.