true scoop....
#1
02-16-2005, 04:27 AM
true scoop....
The 951 ( 1987) basic open dif transaxle can handle over 400hp at the wheels as long as you do not make a living of dumping the clutch.
The early NA open dif transaxle can handle over 220HP at the rear wheels driven hard on the race track.
You can build a NA engine that delivers 200 at the wheels for less than you would spend on a new stock rebuilt 951 engine swap.
The NA brakes work great running on the race track with over 200hp at the rear tires.
You do not need to swap out the entire car of an NA to perform a turbo transplant, not even the wire harness.
Installing a K&N air filter on an NA is a great way to add quickness to the way your wallet will loose 35.00.
CrankCase vacuum adds HP.
Installing an off the shelf cam ( webcam etc) on your modified 944 can loose HP as easily as it can gain it.
Wide fire ring head gaskets don't do sheet. Just keep it tuned.
O ringed heads are silly unless you have reciever grooves in the top of the cylinders.
Steel headgaskets are a recipe for extreme engine failure.
The 944/951 blocks do not have a "coating" on the cylinder walls.
Big stereo systems do not get you laid.
Port matching your intake manifold is better than just extrudehone.
Coating your intake manifold is not a "cool" thing to do.
Bigger is not always better.
A 3" test pipe does little if you have a 2" downpipe leading into it.
Run the engine hard as hell to break it in.
Too high an octane will reduce your HP.
Trick plug wires and coil amps are gimmicks, a good basic set of wires is what you need.
A saturn coupe can beat a 420 wheel HP 951 going up a hill.
Holding the clutch pedal in at redlights will kill your throwout bearing.
and the list goes on.......
The early NA open dif transaxle can handle over 220HP at the rear wheels driven hard on the race track.
You can build a NA engine that delivers 200 at the wheels for less than you would spend on a new stock rebuilt 951 engine swap.
The NA brakes work great running on the race track with over 200hp at the rear tires.
You do not need to swap out the entire car of an NA to perform a turbo transplant, not even the wire harness.
Installing a K&N air filter on an NA is a great way to add quickness to the way your wallet will loose 35.00.
CrankCase vacuum adds HP.
Installing an off the shelf cam ( webcam etc) on your modified 944 can loose HP as easily as it can gain it.
Wide fire ring head gaskets don't do sheet. Just keep it tuned.
O ringed heads are silly unless you have reciever grooves in the top of the cylinders.
Steel headgaskets are a recipe for extreme engine failure.
The 944/951 blocks do not have a "coating" on the cylinder walls.
Big stereo systems do not get you laid.
Port matching your intake manifold is better than just extrudehone.
Coating your intake manifold is not a "cool" thing to do.
Bigger is not always better.
A 3" test pipe does little if you have a 2" downpipe leading into it.
Run the engine hard as hell to break it in.
Too high an octane will reduce your HP.
Trick plug wires and coil amps are gimmicks, a good basic set of wires is what you need.
A saturn coupe can beat a 420 wheel HP 951 going up a hill.
Holding the clutch pedal in at redlights will kill your throwout bearing.
and the list goes on.......
#2
02-16-2005, 12:46 PM
RE: true scoop....
um, okay... thanks for answering a bunch of questions that no one was asking! 
How about introducing yourself and giving us some background on where you have gained your knowledge? Welcome to the forum, by the way! Feel free to contribute your knowledge, but please do us a favor and make sure that you give some supporting information with your statements.
While I agree that a number of the things you say are true, if a newbie came in here and read some of this stuff, they could be seriously misled, and we have had enough problems with guys that were convinced they were going to turn their 944NA into firebreathing monsters already. And I would VERY strongly suggest that no one break in their engine by running it "hard as hell".
Regards,
How about introducing yourself and giving us some background on where you have gained your knowledge? Welcome to the forum, by the way! Feel free to contribute your knowledge, but please do us a favor and make sure that you give some supporting information with your statements. While I agree that a number of the things you say are true, if a newbie came in here and read some of this stuff, they could be seriously misled, and we have had enough problems with guys that were convinced they were going to turn their 944NA into firebreathing monsters already. And I would VERY strongly suggest that no one break in their engine by running it "hard as hell".
Regards,
#3
02-16-2005, 02:41 PM
RE: true scoop....
The early NA open dif transaxle can handle over 220HP at the rear wheels driven hard on the race track.
You can build a NA engine that delivers 200 at the wheels for less than you would spend on a new stock rebuilt 951 engine swap.
You can build a NA engine that delivers 200 at the wheels for less than you would spend on a new stock rebuilt 951 engine swap.
While the N/A trans will be able to handle 220hp for a short amount of time, one should not expect it to last for even an entire season. The ring and pinion gears are the weak link in the N/A trans. I think the gears themselves can handle the power, so if you beefed up the r&p with a hardened and cryo'd unit, and properly shim it, then *maybe* it would last a few seasons.
200hp at the wheels on an n/a 8v motor? That's 240 flywheel hp, roughly the same as a 16v 3.0 968 motor. How can that be done for the same amount?
#5
02-16-2005, 11:48 PM
RE: true scoop....
No worries, I know its in fun, so post away.
"Welcome to the forum, by the way! Feel free to contribute your knowledge, but please do us a favor and make sure that you give some supporting information with your statements."
THank you, nice to find this place. Ok, Lets see, I'll try to back up my post.
I built and drove my 87 951, made 0ver 400HP at the wheels from 3800rpm to redline, with over 500lbs torque that hit at 3700rpm. Ran it on the street with many quick races thrown in. My transaxle was a basic open diff, came on the car, never rebuilt, and I had all the papers and was the second owner.
I built and raced ( actually I don't drive, but one of my guys drove the car) a 84 944 NA. Full race car, 2123lbs weight. The engine started as a 2.5 liter and was bored and stroked and ended up at just a touch over 3.1 liters NA. I did some major port shaping, valve grinding, shaving of the deck etc etc, custom cam and the entire rotating assembly was balanced within 1/2 a gram. Lightened flywheel, knife edged and polished crank shaft... the works. Ran it on a short 5th open diff out of one of our 944S's. I know, open diff sucks..but it kept us with the front runner 911's in the POC v3r5 group. Two seasons on that tranny, no problems. Ran it on stock 84 brakes with metal master pads 15X8 wheels with race tires. We placed second in a TCRA event that had a C5 vette, 996, many 944 turbos with a few NSX's etc thrown in. The 996 was first place.
If you take your car to a shop, and tell them to rebuild a 951 engine, turbo etc...add intercooler, oil cooler, turbo exhaust and the rest of the goodies..water hoses, turbo radiator, waste gate, intercooler pipes...coolant tank..lots of stuff, it adds up quick..and install it into your NA 944, what would you expect to pay? I come up with roughly 9600.00 out the door at modest shop prices and labor. The NA built to a 3.1 liter would run about 1K less installed. Of course, prices are subject to local and shop.
Wide fire ring head gaskets are a bandaid, if teh car is tuned, you will not blow the stock gasket...we run our wide body turbo with 18 psi boost on teh track and have only use stock gaskets...they are the engines safety valve.
O ringed heads are only halh the package, without reciever grooves on the cylinder there is no place for the O ring to force the gasket that makes the "seal" we think we get with the O ringed head alone.
I ran a steel head gasket, it blew the pistons..where as befor, we ran the stock head gasket, and would just blow that instead..much easier to replace between run sessions at thet rack..blown motors are a show stopper. I hate that "walk of shame" as I have to help push my driver to the pits.
OUr blocks are alusil ( spelling), silica is in the aluminum, and lapping the cylinders removes the aluminum from around the glass revealing that hard smooth surface. THere is a great PDF file out there on the web, I'll find it. It goes through the entire process of freshening our blocks. Its written by a company in Germany.
Engine break in is a much argued topic...It was in the old days told to us to baby the car when it was new for a few hundred miles...that was a product of the golden years when the engine building process was not as tight as it is today, so the parts all had to be broken in, and slow constant driving was the best way. Its different now days, and to break in the engine, we do it in stages, using third gear, we run it up to a point hard, let iot cool, repeat, then run it higher in the rpms at harder throttle, repeat, and the last stage is wide open to redline a couple times in third. The gases in the cylinder cumbust and push the rings from behind, into the cylinder walls seating them very fast. Never use synthetic oil on break in, use a cheap, non detergant oil.
I was beat by a Saturn Coupe ( I was in my 87 951)starting from a redline, going up hill...I went sideways, tires smoking my view..it was over.
Hope this helps a little.
Thanks.
"Welcome to the forum, by the way! Feel free to contribute your knowledge, but please do us a favor and make sure that you give some supporting information with your statements."
THank you, nice to find this place. Ok, Lets see, I'll try to back up my post.
I built and drove my 87 951, made 0ver 400HP at the wheels from 3800rpm to redline, with over 500lbs torque that hit at 3700rpm. Ran it on the street with many quick races thrown in. My transaxle was a basic open diff, came on the car, never rebuilt, and I had all the papers and was the second owner.
I built and raced ( actually I don't drive, but one of my guys drove the car) a 84 944 NA. Full race car, 2123lbs weight. The engine started as a 2.5 liter and was bored and stroked and ended up at just a touch over 3.1 liters NA. I did some major port shaping, valve grinding, shaving of the deck etc etc, custom cam and the entire rotating assembly was balanced within 1/2 a gram. Lightened flywheel, knife edged and polished crank shaft... the works. Ran it on a short 5th open diff out of one of our 944S's. I know, open diff sucks..but it kept us with the front runner 911's in the POC v3r5 group. Two seasons on that tranny, no problems. Ran it on stock 84 brakes with metal master pads 15X8 wheels with race tires. We placed second in a TCRA event that had a C5 vette, 996, many 944 turbos with a few NSX's etc thrown in. The 996 was first place.
If you take your car to a shop, and tell them to rebuild a 951 engine, turbo etc...add intercooler, oil cooler, turbo exhaust and the rest of the goodies..water hoses, turbo radiator, waste gate, intercooler pipes...coolant tank..lots of stuff, it adds up quick..and install it into your NA 944, what would you expect to pay? I come up with roughly 9600.00 out the door at modest shop prices and labor. The NA built to a 3.1 liter would run about 1K less installed. Of course, prices are subject to local and shop.
Wide fire ring head gaskets are a bandaid, if teh car is tuned, you will not blow the stock gasket...we run our wide body turbo with 18 psi boost on teh track and have only use stock gaskets...they are the engines safety valve.
O ringed heads are only halh the package, without reciever grooves on the cylinder there is no place for the O ring to force the gasket that makes the "seal" we think we get with the O ringed head alone.
I ran a steel head gasket, it blew the pistons..where as befor, we ran the stock head gasket, and would just blow that instead..much easier to replace between run sessions at thet rack..blown motors are a show stopper. I hate that "walk of shame" as I have to help push my driver to the pits.
OUr blocks are alusil ( spelling), silica is in the aluminum, and lapping the cylinders removes the aluminum from around the glass revealing that hard smooth surface. THere is a great PDF file out there on the web, I'll find it. It goes through the entire process of freshening our blocks. Its written by a company in Germany.
Engine break in is a much argued topic...It was in the old days told to us to baby the car when it was new for a few hundred miles...that was a product of the golden years when the engine building process was not as tight as it is today, so the parts all had to be broken in, and slow constant driving was the best way. Its different now days, and to break in the engine, we do it in stages, using third gear, we run it up to a point hard, let iot cool, repeat, then run it higher in the rpms at harder throttle, repeat, and the last stage is wide open to redline a couple times in third. The gases in the cylinder cumbust and push the rings from behind, into the cylinder walls seating them very fast. Never use synthetic oil on break in, use a cheap, non detergant oil.
I was beat by a Saturn Coupe ( I was in my 87 951)starting from a redline, going up hill...I went sideways, tires smoking my view..it was over.
Hope this helps a little.
Thanks.
#7
02-17-2005, 10:11 AM
RE: true scoop....
$8K?
When most people tell 2.5 8v owners that big power isn't going to happen without a motor swap, it's an understood that anything can be done with an unlimited budget.
That's a bit north of what most N/A owners (generally cheap bustards from my experience) would be willing to pay. It can be done, but the expense (and streetability) would be issues for most people. I'm not a cheapo by any stretch of the imagination, but I could pick up a nice 968 3.0, change out the belts, seals, and tensioner, install it along with the 968 trans, and still be under that $8K mark. But for an all out racecar, what you did sounds impressive.
As far as the trans lasting that long, I think you got lucky, honestly.
I wouldn't expect that as being the norm.
I bet you used the stock N/A brakes, they are very good, especially in a car as light as that. I think that when someone tells me they want to buy big reds for their 944, it is overkill to say the least.
So, who are you on Renn? Two people come to mind from your comments.
Take care,
'nami
When most people tell 2.5 8v owners that big power isn't going to happen without a motor swap, it's an understood that anything can be done with an unlimited budget.
That's a bit north of what most N/A owners (generally cheap bustards from my experience) would be willing to pay. It can be done, but the expense (and streetability) would be issues for most people. I'm not a cheapo by any stretch of the imagination, but I could pick up a nice 968 3.0, change out the belts, seals, and tensioner, install it along with the 968 trans, and still be under that $8K mark. But for an all out racecar, what you did sounds impressive.
As far as the trans lasting that long, I think you got lucky, honestly.
I wouldn't expect that as being the norm.I bet you used the stock N/A brakes, they are very good, especially in a car as light as that. I think that when someone tells me they want to buy big reds for their 944, it is overkill to say the least.
So, who are you on Renn? Two people come to mind from your comments.
Take care,
'nami
